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Water bath

Chris Slenker

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Can you kiln ferment tobacco using a water bath alone , no kiln ?

Also wondering if , traditional stoving in sealed mason jars and pot of water ... would sealed mason jars in oven create the same exact reaction ?

And why all the water bath videos I have seen are they using 190* as temperature , falling 1 degree short of 191 ?
 

Chris Slenker

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I was reading posts 2012 by fmgrowit , ... regarding water bath curing before he owned kiln .... curious how it turned out

Also wondering mason jars in heated water vs stove .... does this create same reaction and results?

Temp advice , would be good as well....
 
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ChinaVoodoo

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A friend kilned tobacco in souvide bags at 120° for a month. It tied up his expensive kitchen device for a month, and could only fit so much of the crop. I think that's why people don't do that.

I'm not sure what you mean by stoving. Toasting is done in such a way that the moisture content is taken from high to low with the intention of removing certain chemicals within the tobacco. A jar would prevent that. But if you're simply referring to some cooking process, then do it however you want.

What's special about 191°?
 

ChinaVoodoo

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After watching the video, I'm thinking a diy water bath on the counter is a waste of energy, like @johnny108 suggested. I'm sure this video is being done by someone who enjoys the experimentation, but he's kinda trying to take the easy way out. At the very least, he could have used a cooler box instead of a tote. Most kiln designs are heavily insulated and would require far less energy.
 

BCgoatfarmer

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I have a lidded 4 gallon pot of water on top of my woodstove. If I keep a thermometer in it and keep my eye on it I've found that so long as the damper remains mostly closed the temp of the water will remain below 130/140. I do stick some tobacco in jars or sometimes wooden plug canisters in the pot. But I have to be careful to monitor the stove and remove if the temperature gets higher than I'd like. Its by no means a perfect solution, I'm yet to have any tobacco mold even aged quite humid/wet while being aged this way. It wouldn't be worth it if I had to pay real money energy to keep jusy the pot hot though.
 

deluxestogie

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Both "stoving" and "toasting" are intentionally vague, overlapping terms that are used differently by different commercial manufacturers' marketers.

Bob
 

Odd Grin

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Both "stoving" and "toasting" are intentionally vague, overlapping terms that are used differently by different commercial manufacturers' marketers.

Bob
Are there any good resources for the processes of toasting to caramelizing sugars in the leaf?
*the following is pure conjecture based on knowledge of other manufacturing processes*.
Those terms are terms very much used by marketers vaguely, but are also technical terms used internally/sales to the producers (ie, toast to char levels in barrels for wine and spirits. I'd imagine there's a similar scale in "stoving" commercially made tobacco *conjecture*)
In malting barley, and most brewing grains, there is a vast and transparent store of available knowledge on the moisture content, temperatures, and time required to hit specific goals, then the maltster can play within those perimeters to create proprietary ingredients within classes by manipulating moisture and temperature to control specific Maillard reaction products, flavors, in the final malt product. While structurally very different, leaf and seed, the Maillard reaction of sugars within the temp/moisture/time triangle is pretty universal.
It's apparent that there is a form of caramelizing happening in stoving, despite being a little below the "nominal" temperature range of the MR. Pressure and moisture will wiggle that needle for sure. Is there info on tobacco reactions at the full MR range of 284-330*f?
The C&D Stoved Red VA, for example, reeks (in the best way) of this, and when combined with a living product like perique, look out, the micro biome is active in aging.

I lost where I was going with some of that, but what I'm getting at is; there's a lot of methods to figure out by reinventing the wheel, but with path finders like you putting out a lot of great starting points to figure it out, we can draw the curtain back a bit.
 

deluxestogie

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Are there any good resources for the processes of toasting to caramelizing sugars in the leaf?
Maybe, though I'm not aware of them. Some of the random tobacco documents, published following the lawsuits against the tobacco industry, sometimes have tidbits, but it takes lucky searches to locate useful info:
"An archive of 14 million documents created by tobacco companies about their advertising, manufacturing, marketing, scientific research and political activities..."
One of the challenges with defining tobacco leaf finishing processes is that the starting chemical composition of each batch of a single tobacco variety from a single source differs from one stalk position to the next, and from one growing season to the next—sometimes from one acre of field to the next. (Massive industrial processing benefits from the averaging effect of scale.) And there are well over 3000 named N. tabacum varieties. [Food recipes often include the weaselly, "cook for x minutes, or until done". Translated = "I cooked it for x minutes, but that's just my ingredients in my pot on my stove during a cold winter afternoon in Duluth."]

The tobacco (pipe, cigarette, cigar, smokeless) industry has a long tradition of obscuring even their most standard and obvious, "proprietary" information. So "stove" definitely means, "heated". But that's all you get. My pipe blend labels spell out the exact recipe, with no hidden ingredients. The makers of commercial products don't want you to know what is in their cigars or pipe blends.

Over the past 13 years, members of this forum have struggled, and sometimes succeeded in discovering a number of tobacco finishing processes that work. I suspect that, for the "stoving" adventure, you will have to experiment, and hopefully document and publish your results here.

Bob
 

Odd Grin

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Maybe, though I'm not aware of them. Some of the random tobacco documents, published following the lawsuits against the tobacco industry, sometimes have tidbits, but it takes lucky searches to locate useful info:
"An archive of 14 million documents created by tobacco companies about their advertising, manufacturing, marketing, scientific research and political activities..."
One of the challenges with defining tobacco leaf finishing processes is that the starting chemical composition of each batch of a single tobacco variety from a single source differs from one stalk position to the next, and from one growing season to the next—sometimes from one acre of field to the next. (Massive industrial processing benefits from the averaging effect of scale.) And there are well over 3000 named N. tabacum varieties. [Food recipes often include the weaselly, "cook for x minutes, or until done". Translated = "I cooked it for x minutes, but that's just my ingredients in my pot on my stove during a cold winter afternoon in Duluth."]

The tobacco (pipe, cigarette, cigar, smokeless) industry has a long tradition of obscuring even their most standard and obvious, "proprietary" information. So "stove" definitely means, "heated". But that's all you get. My pipe blend labels spell out the exact recipe, with no hidden ingredients. The makers of commercial products don't want you to know what is in their cigars or pipe blends.

Over the past 13 years, members of this forum have struggled, and sometimes succeeded in discovering a number of tobacco finishing processes that work. I suspect that, for the "stoving" adventure, you will have to experiment, and hopefully document and publish your results here.

Bob
Thanks, that's about what I was figuring. It's a very "secret sauce" kind of industry. Considerably more than the beverage alcohol industry... lol except some wine sectors. I will definitely be reporting back on my adventures in heating and fermenting the leaf.
 

Chris Slenker

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Great posts , od grin

I will update results as well under controlled inviroment. Water bath in mason jars vs stove in mason jars , results of carmelization
 

ChinaVoodoo

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Starting at high case for some reason. 140°C (284°F) to start, 120°C (248°F) later on. No idea how long. No idea if it gets down to 0% water content before reordering, but I assume so.

tti_ab_tobaccoprimaryprocessflowdiagram1.jpg
 
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