Degree of ripeness for smokeless tobacco?

[squeezyjohn]

Hi there everyone ... I'm not certain that this topic fits neatly in any of the categories as it's such a broad question.

My primary concern is growing tobacco with the right kind of characteristics for producing snus or chewing tobacco (unsweetened) ... so I'm not concerned with the burn quality of the tobacco.

The things I am looking for are leaf which is relatively high in nicotine, as full in aroma as possible (unburnt) and which can cure to a leaf which has minimal bitterness on the tongue when chewed and retains some of the natural sugars.

I know that if I leave the tobacco to ripen after topping then about 5 weeks will get me the maximum nicotine I can get ... but does this extra ripening also increase the bitterness of the leaf?

Snus tobacco is traditionally air cured or sun cured ... never flue cured. My air cured tobacco has always ended up with next to no sugars in the leaf. I have read that sun cured tobacco retains sweetness but has low nicotine ... is that a result of the curing method, or is it because most sun cured tobacco produced is oriental types that are low in nicotine to start with?

So many questions ... I hope somebody out there can give me a hand! I am growing Silver River, Yellow Twist Bud, Oxford 207 and African Red.

 

[SmokesAhoy]

The riper the better. Prime the lower leaves then stalk harvest the upper 2/3. You are using all varieties that are lower in nicotine though. Dark air is higher. Sweetness is a relative thing too. Instead of finding one naturally sweet you might look into sugar free or sugar based sweeteners.

Another issue with nicotine is you are chasing the dragon.

Short of the mythical y1 variety, high nicotine comes in very few varieties. It needs to be heavily fertilized. It needs to be grown during dry years. A general rule is the brights are about 2-3%, burley 4-5%, darks 5-6%. Rustica can be around 9%, but without heavy fertilization it is about the same as the brights at 2-3%.

So as far as I understand it, with these varieties if you can get 3%, ensure its freed up with alkaline and use enough sauce to make it sweet and you should be happy with it.

Tobacco is one of those things in life that is appreciated more with less. It's like a wine drinker getting all happy and tipsy from a couple glasses vs an alcoholic drinking a 5th of vodka and not feeling much beyond the dt's receding.

So basically I'm just saying as I understand it, you can appreciate the lower varieties thru less use, or step up to the higher ones but then eventually they will all be weak to you too. So find one that grows well for you, find a sauce that brings out the right flavor, and enjoy it in moderation.

 

[squeezyjohn]

Thanks for the advice ... I appreciate what you're saying with regards to the nicotine levels - and I'm not looking to buzz myself silly - I'm way past that stage - but it's easier to make a nicer, more natural-tasting snus with a stronger variety due to the fact that you will need less alkali in the making process. Also when using snus - you tend to have far less in your mouth than traditional American chew - so it's nice to make it strong enough to feel.

With my previous years attempts my own tobacco has been weak in nicotine and lacking in flavour compared to leaf that I've bought (even virginias) - and I'm aware that is probably due to my climate with less sun and more rains than traditional growing areas.

I tend not to use rusticas in my snus recipes as I find the "wet-dog" taste a bit too distinctive even at low proportions. My rusticas go to make a twist chew. However - it's very informative to know that if unfertilised, the rusticas will not give much nicotine ... I had no idea.

All my plants have been manured to the hilt throughout their grow so I think I might be OK there - plus it has been an unusually hot and sunny summer.

It's the bitterness I need to avoid!

 

[Knucklehead]

Have you tried the Dark Air varieties? My understanding is that they are traditionally used for chew and snuff. I'm growing two Dark Sun varieties this year that are meant to be sun cured. They may yield the high nicotine and sweetness from sun curing that you desire. I'm saving seed.

 

[squeezyjohn]

Hi Knucks ... I think so - although I get quite confused between variety names and tobacco "types" ... last year I grew black stalk mammoth and dark virginia both of which made short compact plants with long big leaves. Are they Dark Air varieties?

However - both those varieties were not fantastic growers in what was a rather dull cloudy summer in 2013 (not sure any tobacco likes that kind of weather though) ... so I kind of wrote them off looking to go for things which had proven to work for others over here. The summer has been better this year - and the Silver River I'm growing is outperforming anything I've ever tried before.

Those Dark Sun cured varieties sound very exciting ... and potentially just what I'm looking for. Are they the VA407 and 409? I will be keeping an eye on your grow blog to see how they are doing!

Cheers

Squeezy

 

[SmokesAhoy]

Dark air is god for smokeless. What types Knucks? I read your thread but don't remember in the massive list you are growing.

 

[Knucklehead]

The Dark Sun varieties are VA 407 and VA 409. I'm growing several Dark Air, Dark Fire, Dark Fire/Air, plus the two Dark Sun varieties.

DT 518		dark air
DT 592		dark air
M&N		dark air
Vincent Harris Madole	552773	dark air
Hastings	552375	dark air
Little Sweet Orinoco	552376	dark air
Lizard Tail Orinoco		dark air
Shirey		dark air
Small Stalk Black Mammoth		dark air
Walker's Broadleaf	552374	dark air
VA 355	604198	dark air
Narrow Leaf Madole	552710	dark fire/air
Little Crittenden		dark fire/air
TND 950		dark fire
TR Madole (Tom Rosson)	552764	dark fire
VA 409	552508	dark sun
VA 407	557005	dark sun

So far my favorite based on leaf size and growth habit is the VA 355. I'll have to do some sample and tasting to determine which one I want on a yearly basis for my cigarette blend. The ones without a PI number are ones I could not find in the GRIN database. The Dark Suns that I have harvested are about half finished sun curing, they seem to be curing very well in the sun.