GreenDragon
Well-Known Member
I had a bad experience there last year and haven't been back. https://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/live-cigar-rolling-webcam.3073/post-160180
First Rolls
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waikikigun
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I'm familiar with that situation, but they've been very limited about what they unload.
yo1dog
Well-Known Member
That sucks. I went to the 6th street location for 5 years or so before they closed (good stop while drinking on dirty 6th) and have been going to the other location since (right by my office!). The rollers have always been busy cranking them out whenever I've gone. Also, I remember the humidor being almost entirely Bobalu. I could be wrong. I'll have to check next time I go.
All that said, I am only just now starting to learn more about cigars and tobacco. When I first started smoking I found that Super Fuerte, really liked it, and have been buying boxes of that ever since. So my experience is generally: walk into store, ask for box of Super Fuerte Churchills, pay, and leave. Sometimes I buy a couple of random single sticks as well.
Since I don't have much experience with other brands, I don't know if this is typical or not but the quality seems inconsistent. Both flavor and rolling. In a box of 25 I usually get 3-4 that are hard to draw from or have wrapper issues or something. Half the time they have good flavor. Other half of the time they have really good fresh flavor. Again when I buy 25 at a time I am only paying $4/stick so maybe that's expected at that price.
I guess I've been too complacent to branch out. Suggestions?
The scale of a production operation (how many rollers, how many quality control check points, how much tobacco is available at any given time) has a significant influence on consistency of the products that are ultimately retailed. Factories pump out "seconds", because a certain percentage of their production fails their most stringent quality control. And larger factories can afford (can't afford not) to break down truly failed cigars, and try again with that filler. A tiny operation works on a shoe string.
Bob
Bob
Mathaious12
Well-Known Member
Good to know. I didn't know anything about them other than they have a store where they roll in Texas somewhere.
ChinaVoodoo
Moderator
I'm pretty sure I've been there. Just East end of downtown, right? I was immediately directed to the flavoured cigars by the salesman, lol. I didn't buy those. Everything I bought tasted good. The purple banded box press "oscuros" made by lips brown though.
It was nice to smoke inside as it was cold and breezy day.
It was nice to smoke inside as it was cold and breezy day.
yo1dog
Well-Known Member
I recorded my last rolling in hopes of getting some feedback from you guys. Of course it turned out to be the most trouble I have ever had.
Took me 30 minutes to roll 1 stick! 5 tries to get binder wrapped. I assume my binder was too dry which means my attempt at casing failed miserably: I threw the leaves into 2.5 gallon bags, sprayed some water in there until my hygrometer read 65% for filler, 70% for binding, and 75% for wrapper. Left overnight.
Took me 30 minutes to roll 1 stick! 5 tries to get binder wrapped. I assume my binder was too dry which means my attempt at casing failed miserably: I threw the leaves into 2.5 gallon bags, sprayed some water in there until my hygrometer read 65% for filler, 70% for binding, and 75% for wrapper. Left overnight.
waikikigun
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MarcL
Well-Known Member
This is great. This is really going to help to point things out for us all as for as technique.
Let me watch this a few more times and write it out.
Let me watch this a few more times and write it out.
Nathan Esq
Well-Known Member
Great video! I found that Sumatra binder is very difficult to bind with, it's so thin. I also saw in a video somewhere that you should put pressure on the bunch, not the binder. I tried to bind nice and tight with just the binder, but I couldn't get it. I'd roll it with both hands to even it out and tear it up.
I started binding loose, then tightening with strips of newspaper "paper mold" which worked way better. I also started using seco to bind and wrap with (much cheaper)
Rolling Maduros is difficult for me because it's a thicker, crinkly leaf and works better with thin binder. At first, binding with a thicker leaf and wrapping with a thinner leaf is easier than vice versa.
As far as everything in proper case, it's a rare event for me, but I'm close. Patience to wait till the next day pays dividends. Triple cap? I'm not there yet, but I like just a pigtail anyway.
Just my 2 cents. Take everything I say at face value, since I'm far from an expert, and I'm fairly new too.
The binder in the video is in at best low medium case. That is to say: way too low. Get it wetter over more than one day, and use a double binder when binding with sumatra. It's very thin: wrapper grade, really.
Give it a go again, you guys will get it.
Nice video, my two cents :
- your binder leaves are in the wrong side : the veins of the leaf has to be parallel to the bunch (see picture bellow), the outer edge of the binder leaf on the outside of the cigar (the inner edge is hidden).
- your binder seems too dry
- when you spray your leaves, give them more time to absorb the humidity.
- if the binder leaf is too thin, then use two half leaves (double binder).
Have fun
- your binder leaves are in the wrong side : the veins of the leaf has to be parallel to the bunch (see picture bellow), the outer edge of the binder leaf on the outside of the cigar (the inner edge is hidden).
- your binder seems too dry
- when you spray your leaves, give them more time to absorb the humidity.
- if the binder leaf is too thin, then use two half leaves (double binder).
Have fun
GreenDragon
Well-Known Member
I would suggest practicing using a piece of paper as a binder until you can get a consistent bunch and good draw. Then move to using a double binder. Put more pressure when binding your bunch with your fingertips and the motion is almost like you are trying to curl the tobacco into the middle of itself. Have you ever tried to roll up a long piece of paper into a tight roll, and you pull back on the roll as you go to tighten it up? Kinda like that.
Agree. I double the binder for Sumatra, Besuki or Cameroon. Double binder means laying the two binder leaves on top of one another, then rolling the bunch in both at the same time.
Bob
waikikigun
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@Charly's awesome graphic explains your main error. Your next big problem is poor casing technique. Your spray is way too hard: it should be a mist, a fog, after which you hide the leaves in a rolled up plastic trash bag for some hours and then remist until it's right. The leaf will not be moist to the touch when you roll (wet leaf in a bunch will drastically increase your dog rocket odds) but will have the required flexibility. As @MarcL once said, you must coax the moisture into the leaf. You could possibly get away with a single Sumatra binder if you were rolling a petite corona, but for that monster you'll need more binder support.
Mathaious12
Well-Known Member
For casing my wrapper I use a big spray bottle that I got from Home Depot(The kind you would dilute Windex into). When adjusted just right it still sprays way to much water regardless of if it's a half squeeze or full, the mist is not fine enough. The way I have learned to work with that is to spray both sides of a leaf let it absorb as much water as it can in about 1 minute then wipe off the water that's still on the surface of the leaf after that minute. Any water you let stay on the leaf after a few minutes will make it soggy/discolored and unusable till it dries, so I make sure to get it all.
I then place the leaf into a grocery store bag that I pumped one spray into, if the spray was to strong(it almost always is) and it pools I will move the water around to cover the inside of the bag with moisture then dump out the excess and give it one good shake.
After putting the leaf in the bag I fold the top to create a seal and use binder clips to hold close. I let it sit in there for a few hours to a day. I know it's ready when the wrapper gets to the point it can stretch. I only do that to the amount of leafs I will use in one session, it will mold if left at that case for more than a few days. For binder same process but only spray one side of the leaf and I use a paper towel to dry about half the moisture in the bag before putting the leaf in it. That's what I found works for me with the tools I have and the ambient humidity of where I live.
When I first started I was worried about what RH the case should be too. What I've learned is don't worries about that, it's more about the feel of the leaf. Wrapper should be stretchy, not Stretch Armstrong stretchy, more like wet paper towel. The binder just needs to be to a point where it won't crack when bunching. Do some experimenting before you try rolling again to see what it takes to get one leaf to different case levels.
I then place the leaf into a grocery store bag that I pumped one spray into, if the spray was to strong(it almost always is) and it pools I will move the water around to cover the inside of the bag with moisture then dump out the excess and give it one good shake.
After putting the leaf in the bag I fold the top to create a seal and use binder clips to hold close. I let it sit in there for a few hours to a day. I know it's ready when the wrapper gets to the point it can stretch. I only do that to the amount of leafs I will use in one session, it will mold if left at that case for more than a few days. For binder same process but only spray one side of the leaf and I use a paper towel to dry about half the moisture in the bag before putting the leaf in it. That's what I found works for me with the tools I have and the ambient humidity of where I live.
When I first started I was worried about what RH the case should be too. What I've learned is don't worries about that, it's more about the feel of the leaf. Wrapper should be stretchy, not Stretch Armstrong stretchy, more like wet paper towel. The binder just needs to be to a point where it won't crack when bunching. Do some experimenting before you try rolling again to see what it takes to get one leaf to different case levels.
waikikigun
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Which is the definition of the noun "case," in cigar rolling terms.
MarcL
Well-Known Member
Let me do it this way. I've been keeping updated on posts above so, I will repeat or elaborating on some stuff intentionally indirectly.
First, your video sequentially, I would say where there is a RH factor to be had, it just has a lack of relation to the goal, which is case in the leaf. You do mention that. Let me save that.
Lets go to orientation.
We have the head and the foot of the cigar.
We have the tip, edge and base of the leaf.
The tips go to the foot and the base go to the head so that it's sacred offerings are given in order.
This applies to all components. filler/binder/wrapper
Lets just say that is the way it's done respectfully.
Because their are cuts in the video, my observations my be wrong.
Your bunching is of correct orientation.
I see your bunching technique as accordion booking because you stack the leaf flat then fold in an s-curve.
If you where to stack then bind, I would see it as a book bunching.
If you where to make the s-curve to each individual leaf, stack then bind, I would see it as accordion bunching.
Your binding to the bunch is done from head to foot which, while not typical, is done intentionally in practice by some, though, may cause problems with wrappings.
Typically, binding is done foot to head / tip to base with the binder inner edge tucked inside and under the outer edge of the binder leaves. The same goes with the wrapper.
The left side of the graph above is not what you do.
You have the veining along the bunch, not around the bunch.
The right side of the graph is correct having the tips/foot to the left.
Your edging faces the bottom. It should face to the top.
You did mention having your veining on the out side before. You are correct, they should be on the inside.
I'm not really sure about all of the orientation placement because of the cut away in the video but, depending on which side of the leaf you choose, determines the direction of binding. .. left to right or right to left
Then you do this thing where you roll forward the finished bunch on the board and say, "I don't know what it does but, I saw someone doing this .. have to do with the tobacco being packed in there.." .. I'd say you are correct. If you were to roll it in the opposite direction you would find the opposite effect.
Your wrapper edge is at the bottom, it should be at the top.
You do this thing when wrapping where on your left hand, you roll forward with the thumb and first finger while simultaneously keep the wrapper taut with your second and third finger.
I don't know why you do this but, I suspect it just makes sense to you or, you play an musical instrument and it comes natural to you.
Muscle memory is something that we do tend to feel is part of what is to be had for benefit with this.
The technique in de-veining the mid-rib I feel is best served from the tip and back to the base.
That is, when removing the center mid-rib, start at the tip three to five veins down, pinching out the mid-rib to the tip then, down to where the mid-rib gets thicker and, where there is enough leaf at the tip to lay against the skin or its self when, throwing it over and around one hand and, with the other hand pulling with the mid-rid around, keeping it at that point where the mid-rib separates from the leaf, enabling the mid-rib to be pulled out of the leaf without tearing it.
With the exception to covering the leaf case and preparation techniques, that is what I have at this moment relating to the video. I'll have to return to cover that.
First, your video sequentially, I would say where there is a RH factor to be had, it just has a lack of relation to the goal, which is case in the leaf. You do mention that. Let me save that.
Lets go to orientation.
We have the head and the foot of the cigar.
We have the tip, edge and base of the leaf.
The tips go to the foot and the base go to the head so that it's sacred offerings are given in order.
This applies to all components. filler/binder/wrapper
Lets just say that is the way it's done respectfully.
Because their are cuts in the video, my observations my be wrong.
Your bunching is of correct orientation.
I see your bunching technique as accordion booking because you stack the leaf flat then fold in an s-curve.
If you where to stack then bind, I would see it as a book bunching.
If you where to make the s-curve to each individual leaf, stack then bind, I would see it as accordion bunching.
Your binding to the bunch is done from head to foot which, while not typical, is done intentionally in practice by some, though, may cause problems with wrappings.
Typically, binding is done foot to head / tip to base with the binder inner edge tucked inside and under the outer edge of the binder leaves. The same goes with the wrapper.
The left side of the graph above is not what you do.
You have the veining along the bunch, not around the bunch.
The right side of the graph is correct having the tips/foot to the left.
Your edging faces the bottom. It should face to the top.
You did mention having your veining on the out side before. You are correct, they should be on the inside.
I'm not really sure about all of the orientation placement because of the cut away in the video but, depending on which side of the leaf you choose, determines the direction of binding. .. left to right or right to left
Then you do this thing where you roll forward the finished bunch on the board and say, "I don't know what it does but, I saw someone doing this .. have to do with the tobacco being packed in there.." .. I'd say you are correct. If you were to roll it in the opposite direction you would find the opposite effect.
Your wrapper edge is at the bottom, it should be at the top.
You do this thing when wrapping where on your left hand, you roll forward with the thumb and first finger while simultaneously keep the wrapper taut with your second and third finger.
I don't know why you do this but, I suspect it just makes sense to you or, you play an musical instrument and it comes natural to you.
Muscle memory is something that we do tend to feel is part of what is to be had for benefit with this.
The technique in de-veining the mid-rib I feel is best served from the tip and back to the base.
That is, when removing the center mid-rib, start at the tip three to five veins down, pinching out the mid-rib to the tip then, down to where the mid-rib gets thicker and, where there is enough leaf at the tip to lay against the skin or its self when, throwing it over and around one hand and, with the other hand pulling with the mid-rid around, keeping it at that point where the mid-rib separates from the leaf, enabling the mid-rib to be pulled out of the leaf without tearing it.
With the exception to covering the leaf case and preparation techniques, that is what I have at this moment relating to the video. I'll have to return to cover that.
MarcL
Well-Known Member
If you have any questions about what I mean, just ask.
On leaf case and preparation techniques.
Applying moisture to the leaves makes the leaves easier to handle and reduces the risk of broken leaves.
My short spiel is know your leaf.
I believe there is no substitute for the relationship building with the leaf.
Having to prepare leaf for cigar assembly in addition to what you buy I believe, is unavoidable.
A lot of what you'll get will be different as far as classification.
Meaning, caricature in body or weight / thickness, color, qualities like burn, aroma, taste. All which will determine what and how much preparation will need to be done.
If the leaf is held under water, maybe it couldn't get any wetter. NO! it needs what ever time it needs to get there. can't be understated.
It goes like this, while casing for handling it will get roughly separated and, rotated till it can be handled (it will go in and, out of the tub/bag to take the time it needs to case up) then, that lb will get stacked from light to heavy and, go back in the bag for storage at a lowered case.
Through the process, while in higher case, take the opportunity stretch out the crinkles creases, sort it to likened bodies.
Revisit it to see that the case is down enough to where it will not turn to mush.
Storing it to dry will open the opportunity for easy breakage.
Bring the hole bag up. It will take time to acclimate so keep revisiting the bag. It will be the kind of thing where you'll want to bring it above the case for storage and dry it some.
I'll use two planks of wood 14" by 33" next to each other and, there might be 10 or 12 piles that I'll spread out, separate and sort.
There will be some seco in the viso some ligero in the seco, yada yada.
Revisiting open bags is a common practice of mine. It lends to pre-assembly preparation. Prep for assembly for bunching lends to bunching efficiency.
I believe that the final preparations should not be done before the manufacturer. Because it would not store well.
On leaf case and preparation techniques.
Applying moisture to the leaves makes the leaves easier to handle and reduces the risk of broken leaves.
My short spiel is know your leaf.
I believe there is no substitute for the relationship building with the leaf.
Having to prepare leaf for cigar assembly in addition to what you buy I believe, is unavoidable.
A lot of what you'll get will be different as far as classification.
Meaning, caricature in body or weight / thickness, color, qualities like burn, aroma, taste. All which will determine what and how much preparation will need to be done.
If the leaf is held under water, maybe it couldn't get any wetter. NO! it needs what ever time it needs to get there. can't be understated.
It goes like this, while casing for handling it will get roughly separated and, rotated till it can be handled (it will go in and, out of the tub/bag to take the time it needs to case up) then, that lb will get stacked from light to heavy and, go back in the bag for storage at a lowered case.
Through the process, while in higher case, take the opportunity stretch out the crinkles creases, sort it to likened bodies.
Revisit it to see that the case is down enough to where it will not turn to mush.
Storing it to dry will open the opportunity for easy breakage.
Bring the hole bag up. It will take time to acclimate so keep revisiting the bag. It will be the kind of thing where you'll want to bring it above the case for storage and dry it some.
I'll use two planks of wood 14" by 33" next to each other and, there might be 10 or 12 piles that I'll spread out, separate and sort.
There will be some seco in the viso some ligero in the seco, yada yada.
Revisiting open bags is a common practice of mine. It lends to pre-assembly preparation. Prep for assembly for bunching lends to bunching efficiency.
I believe that the final preparations should not be done before the manufacturer. Because it would not store well.
yo1dog
Well-Known Member
Thank you guys very much for your feedback and advice!
I am still reading through it all. It's been a very busy week! I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
Thanks again.
I am still reading through it all. It's been a very busy week! I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
Thanks again.
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