First Rolls

[Nathan Esq]

I'll use two planks of wood 14" by 33" next to each other and, there might be 10 or 12 piles that I'll spread out, separate and sort.
There will be some seco in the viso some ligero in the seco, yada yada.

So in your bag of Viso, leaf may be reclassified as Ligero and Seco? I've noticed when I lay out 10 leaves of each filler, some of my Ligero is thinner than my viso, some of my seco is thicker than my viso, etc, etc.

 

[GreenDragon]

Seco, Legero, Viso are names that indicate the stalk position that the leaf was harvested from, and this is a range along a plant. For instance, Viso may be defined by a farmer as leaf position 7-12. Tobacco is an agricultural product, and therefore will exhibit a lot of variation. When rolling, those terms tend to morph into describing the characteristics of the leaf itself. Strength, thickness, flexibility, burn qualities, color, etc. So, while a farmer will harvest certain leaves as Viso, you have to remember that the leaves on the bottom end of the range will exhibit characteristics closer to Seco, and the highest leaves harvested will be more like Ligero. When rolling, you may therefore re-classify your leaf based on the characteristics you are looking for at that time for that cigar. If you watch any of the videos available on YouTube made at cigar manufacturers, you will see that they are constantly re-sorting their leaf into many sub-classifications due to this variation.

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

During a rolling session, I pull out the appropriate number of leaves for the whole batch, and I specifically choose leaves that are similar to add consistency to the batch. Although pre-grading them as Marc described would create greater consistency between batches, I like my sanity where it is. What happens if you move beyond seco, viso, ligero to low seco, mid seco, high seco, inter-seco/viso, low viso, mid viso, high viso, inter-viso/ligero, low ligero, mid ligero, high ligero, and one-off misshapen iconoclastic leaves that defy classification and rebel like they are members of the freedom club? Do you really want that blood on your hands?

 

[Nathan Esq]

I'd really like to avoid that! Sometimes though I think the viso should go in the center because its thicker, but the Ligero is more black, so maybe that should go in the middle...maybe I will just keep everything where it is and roll on, after all it's just a cigar.

 

[waikikigun]

I'd really like to avoid that! Sometimes though I think the viso should go in the center because its thicker, but the Ligero is more black, so maybe that should go in the middle...maybe I will just keep everything where it is and roll on, after all it's just a cigar.

When in doubt put a match to a sample and out the worst burning stuff in the middle. That's the beauty of this hobby. The truth is in the testing, and the testing is easy.

 

[MarcL]

So in your bag of Viso, leaf may be reclassified as Ligero and Seco? I've noticed when I lay out 10 leaves of each filler, some of my Ligero is thinner than my viso, some of my seco is thicker than my viso, etc, etc.

Well, I like all of what was said above. I'll say, maybe what I mean its really more about relation to what its setting next to and "that time for that cigar."
Though, I want leaf straight out of a bail. I don't want any additional handling being done that is not necessary. I want to be the one doing the final sorting and classifying. I'm very happy to be able to get leaf that has been prepared properly for bailing.

I have taken a lb of seco and, a lb of viso (or different primings) of the same type of leaf, separated separately and, store them in the same bag set opposite each other. Some classifications will go into the other.

In addition, there will be few special, very special leaves that are smaller and, thicker known as media tiempo (corona). The very top of the plant. Treat them as such.

 

[yo1dog]

All caught up. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to watch and give advice.

List of things I have learned:

• My case technique is no bueno.
• Binder was way too dry.
• I should use a double binder due to the thinness of Sumatra and the large ring size.
• I need to ensure proper orientation of the binder - same as the wrapper.
• Seco goes on the outside, viso in the middle.
• When binding I should feel for uneven spots as I go and add or remove filler to fix.

My biggest obstacle is casing - which I realize is one of the hardest parts to get right at first.

I thought casing was as simple as storing the leaves in adequate humidity which would allow them to absorb moisture out of the air. That does not seem to be the case. I've had my binder leaves in a bag sitting at 71% RH for a week now but they are still too dry. Not stretchy at all. I guess I need to spray each leaf directly. But, I worry about storing them too wet. I read they should be stored bellow 75% RH to prevent mold. However, if I were to spray each leaf and bag them that would increase the moisture in the bag and send the RH well above 75%, right?

Ideally I could store filler and binder at correct case and only have to bring wrapper up to case when It was time to roll.

 

[waikikigun]

All caught up. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to watch and give advice.

List of things I have learned:

• My case technique is no bueno.
• Binder was way too dry.
• I should use a double binder due to the thinness of Sumatra and the large ring size.
• I need to ensure proper orientation of the binder - same as the wrapper.
• Seco goes on the outside, viso in the middle.
• When binding I should feel for uneven spots as I go and add or remove filler to fix.

My biggest obstacle is casing - which I realize is one of the hardest parts to get right at first.

I thought casing was as simple as storing the leaves in adequate humidity which would allow them to absorb moisture out of the air. That does not seem to be the case. I've had my binder leaves in a bag sitting at 71% RH for a week now but they are still too dry. Not stretchy at all. I guess I need to spray each leaf directly. But, I worry about storing them too wet. I read they should be stored bellow 75% RH to prevent mold. However, if I were to spray each leaf and bag them that would increase the moisture in the bag and send the RH well above 75%, right?

Ideally I could store filler and binder at correct case and only have to bring wrapper up to case when It was time to roll.

Your points are correct.

Sounds like you are saying you want to case these things and then store them for some amount of time before you roll with them. That "some amount of time" should not be more than an hour or two. Preferably you use them as soon as they have the necessary flexibility.

This video shows the methodology of conditioning your leaves. As soon as they were ready--in this case after another half hour in the bag, I sat down and rolled with them.

View: https://youtu.be/srITVUivxLk

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

Others who are better rollers than myself recommend hydrating a binder for at least a day. Personally, I spritz them about 10-15 minutes before rolling.

Of course there are limits for long term storage, but I have stored wrapper leaf in high case for over a week without mold.

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

I think the message from mixed messages is that there are multiple paths and general principles, and that you will find your own way.

 

[Knucklehead]

Your points are correct.

Sounds like you are saying you want to case these things and then store them for some amount of time before you roll with them. That "some amount of time" should not be more than an hour or two. Preferably you use them as soon as they have the necessary flexibility.

This video shows the methodology of conditioning your leaves. As soon as they were ready--in this case after another half hour in the bag, I sat down and rolled with them.

View: https://youtu.be/srITVUivxLk

What is the temperature where you are while doing your conditioning?

 

[waikikigun]

What is the temperature where you are while doing your conditioning?

Ranges between 52 and 75F. Gets hotter and colder here too but that's the approximate temp range where the humidity seems to be in a usable rolling range, e.g. 50-90RH.

 

[MarcL]

All caught up. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to watch and give advice.

List of things I have learned:

• My case technique is no bueno.
• Binder was way too dry.
• I should use a double binder due to the thinness of Sumatra and the large ring size.
• I need to ensure proper orientation of the binder - same as the wrapper.
• Seco goes on the outside, viso in the middle.
• When binding I should feel for uneven spots as I go and add or remove filler to fix.

My biggest obstacle is casing - which I realize is one of the hardest parts to get right at first.

I thought casing was as simple as storing the leaves in adequate humidity which would allow them to absorb moisture out of the air. That does not seem to be the case. I've had my binder leaves in a bag sitting at 71% RH for a week now but they are still too dry. Not stretchy at all. I guess I need to spray each leaf directly. But, I worry about storing them too wet. I read they should be stored bellow 75% RH to prevent mold. However, if I were to spray each leaf and bag them that would increase the moisture in the bag and send the RH well above 75%, right?

Ideally I could store filler and binder at correct case and only have to bring wrapper up to case when It was time to roll.

Right. Your casing container of choice will be well above 75% RH.
@webmost has this video showing his method for casing wrapper.
Not so different from what I do. I use a tub, spraying the sides and inside the top through the process to keep the humidity up.

First when I get the pound, I'll roughly separate the leaf, spraying the leaf, with my hands I'm spreading out the water on the leaf so it doesn't pool so much.
Throughout the process I'm separating the leaf into individual leaves, stretching out the folds and crinkled bits, sorting them into likened types and stacking into one pile from light to heavy.
And yes, beyond the point of storage case, beyond the point of assembly case. The case level is for stretching out the leaf, and further fermenting the leaf. Not a very safe place to be for long. It will deteriorate to dust if left.
In the middle of it all the leaves have been dried to the point to where I feel comfortable enough to put it in a bag. This will take as much time as it takes. It does move along at a point so it will get a little attentive.
I will also revisit prepped leaf in storage, opened bags to check and adjust as necessary. A common practice of mine. More often on leaf that may need further drying that has just been sorted for storage.
It lends to pre-assembly preparation. Prep for assembly for bunching lends to bunching efficiency.

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

Right. Your casing container of choice will be well above 75% RH.
@webmost has this video showing his method for casing wrapper.
Not so different from what I do. I use a tub, spraying the sides and inside the top through the process to keep the humidity up.

First when I get the pound, I'll roughly separate the leaf, spraying the leaf, with my hands I'm spreading out the water on the leaf so it doesn't pool so much.
Throughout the process I'm separating the leaf into individual leaves, stretching out the folds and crinkled bits, sorting them into likened types and stacking into one pile from light to heavy.
And yes, beyond the point of storage case, beyond the point of assembly case. The case level is for stretching out the leaf, and further fermenting the leaf. Not a very safe place to be for long. It will deteriorate to dust if left.
In the middle of it all the leaves have been dried to the point to where I feel comfortable enough to put it in a bag. This will take as much time as it takes. It does move along at a point so it will get a little attentive.
I will also revisit prepped leaf in storage, opened bags to check and adjust as necessary. A common practice of mine. More often on leaf that may need further drying that has just been sorted for storage.
It lends to pre-assembly preparation. Prep for assembly for bunching lends to bunching efficiency.

I believe my eyes, and it makes sense, but I'm still skeptical about this conditioning chamber. I don't think I can support my doubt except maybe with it not being as warm here. I have to try this to find out because it appears to have an advantage in keeping leaves attractive. So here we go.

 

[MarcL]

@ChinaVoodoo I can't imagine that clamp making any impressions in molds but, seeing such small contact surfaces while pressing does sparks my curiosity.

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

@ChinaVoodoo I can't imagine that clamp making any impressions in molds but, seeing such small contact surfaces while pressing does sparks my curiosity.

It has rubber feet so nothing digs in. Sometimes the edges of the mold doesn't fit as tightly and I need to add a board or another mold.

 

[deluxestogie]

Those hand-screw clamps can exert up to 400 pounds of force. Spread over 1 sq. ft (144 sq. in.), you can get up close to 3 psi.

Bob

 

[Mathaious12]

Right. Your casing container of choice will be well above 75% RH.
@webmost has this video showing his method for casing wrapper.
Not so different from what I do. I use a tub, spraying the sides and inside the top through the process to keep the humidity up.

First when I get the pound, I'll roughly separate the leaf, spraying the leaf, with my hands I'm spreading out the water on the leaf so it doesn't pool so much.
Throughout the process I'm separating the leaf into individual leaves, stretching out the folds and crinkled bits, sorting them into likened types and stacking into one pile from light to heavy.
And yes, beyond the point of storage case, beyond the point of assembly case. The case level is for stretching out the leaf, and further fermenting the leaf. Not a very safe place to be for long. It will deteriorate to dust if left.
In the middle of it all the leaves have been dried to the point to where I feel comfortable enough to put it in a bag. This will take as much time as it takes. It does move along at a point so it will get a little attentive.
I will also revisit prepped leaf in storage, opened bags to check and adjust as necessary. A common practice of mine. More often on leaf that may need further drying that has just been sorted for storage.
It lends to pre-assembly preparation. Prep for assembly for bunching lends to bunching efficiency.

Is that just wrapper you case and stretch like that, or filler as well?

 

[MarcL]

Is that just wrapper you case and stretch like that, or filler as well?

All of it really. You will hear low for filler, medium for binder and high for wrapper. This refers to the case for the assembly of the cigar.
This speaks mostly to preparation for sorting, storage and pre-preparation for assembly with, the emphasis on the needed time for absorption to enable flattening for the desired form of manipulation to assemble.

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

I believe my eyes, and it makes sense, but I'm still skeptical about this conditioning chamber. I don't think I can support my doubt except maybe with it not being as warm here. I have to try this to find out because it appears to have an advantage in keeping leaves attractive. So here we go.

View attachment 30204

He says 2hrs for binder, 5/6 hours for wrapper. No way. It's been 9hrs, and I wouldn't even bind with the leaves I put in there. We'll see in the morning.