All the flue cured virginia lemon I've recently got from WLT is different than what usually comes. The leaves are much thicker, sort of like puffy, and stiff. Some of them are white, like sun bleached maybe. And sort of leathery I guess. The smoke from these leaves is so harsh it makes my throat close up and wheezy. Is there anything that can be done to make it smokeable?
Help, what can I do with this tobacco?
- Thread starter Roberto
- Start date
Belle-Beast
Well-Known Member
I to came here looking for some ideas on what to do as well.
The leaf seems way thicker than any of the other Canadian flue cured Virginia lemon leaf I ever had.
The smell and taste is also quite different to any flue cured Virginia or Canadian Virginia we have received in the past.
We all agree here that it has a very strong hay and urine/barnyard smell to it.
We tried casing it and we have also tried toasting it with and without casing and using various temps ect and that all helped some but it's still has quite a hay smell to it and def not quite where we would like it to be as far as taste goes.
Do we need to toast it more or at higher temps or will it just have to age out of this state it's in???
I read someplace that the strong hay and barnyard smell can be caused by a rushed cure which then leaves to much nitrogen in the leaf hence the strong hay and barnyard smell.
Idk if there is any science or truth to that as it was just a comment someone made but if that is the case is there a way to remove that somehow and make it smoother and sweeter???
If it's not due to a rushed cure what else could cause this to happen with the differences we are seeing, smelling and tasting???
And btw I just want to put it out there that I am not complaining because we certainly can't expect perfect every time and As we all knew this is an agricultural product that can be influenced by weather and all sorts of things.
I am just trying to learn more about tobacco leaf and how to deal with it when these sort of things do happen.
The leaf seems way thicker than any of the other Canadian flue cured Virginia lemon leaf I ever had.
The smell and taste is also quite different to any flue cured Virginia or Canadian Virginia we have received in the past.
We all agree here that it has a very strong hay and urine/barnyard smell to it.
We tried casing it and we have also tried toasting it with and without casing and using various temps ect and that all helped some but it's still has quite a hay smell to it and def not quite where we would like it to be as far as taste goes.
Do we need to toast it more or at higher temps or will it just have to age out of this state it's in???
I read someplace that the strong hay and barnyard smell can be caused by a rushed cure which then leaves to much nitrogen in the leaf hence the strong hay and barnyard smell.
Idk if there is any science or truth to that as it was just a comment someone made but if that is the case is there a way to remove that somehow and make it smoother and sweeter???
If it's not due to a rushed cure what else could cause this to happen with the differences we are seeing, smelling and tasting???
And btw I just want to put it out there that I am not complaining because we certainly can't expect perfect every time and As we all knew this is an agricultural product that can be influenced by weather and all sorts of things.
I am just trying to learn more about tobacco leaf and how to deal with it when these sort of things do happen.
Can you post a photo of typical examples of some of these leaves?
Bob
Bob
ShiniKoroshi
Dental Floss Tycoon
I like that Canadian Lemon for blends that call for air-cured as its not as sweet as Brightleaf. However, I have been plagued with mouth irritation (harshness which is not PH related) for months and narrowed it down to a couple varieties as the cause. The Ca. Lemon is one that irritates me bad in spite of its wonderful taste. In a blend like Warspur I hardly notice the irritation but in a simple 2 or 3 part blend it gets me. And the cigs have a wide dark band on the paper suggestive of protein. Most of the irritation and dark band are gone by using Brightleaf instead.
Ive tried casing, toasting and pressing to no avail although allowing some time to pass after pressing does help. My conclusion is that it needs to age or spend some time in a kiln.
Things like this are what they are. Complex processes involving complex living materials will have varying degrees of success in practice when scaled up for production. Thankfully we have this forum to guide us to a perfect smoke.
Ive tried casing, toasting and pressing to no avail although allowing some time to pass after pressing does help. My conclusion is that it needs to age or spend some time in a kiln.
Things like this are what they are. Complex processes involving complex living materials will have varying degrees of success in practice when scaled up for production. Thankfully we have this forum to guide us to a perfect smoke.
A urine smell is likely ammonia, which is generated by the ongoing breakdown of albuminous proteins within the leaf lamina. (By contrast, a fecal, barnyard smell is likely due to the growth of E. coli bacteria, and should not be there.) Flue-curing should eliminate proteins. It is always a fast curing process, and should follow a rigid time schedule—from primed, green leaf to fully flue-cured in 5 to 9 days, depending on the stalk level of the priming.
In my own flue-curing efforts, the leaf stem (central vein) usually ends up a dark brown, and brittle. It may be that these batches were not properly flue-cured.
You should not have to kiln (123-128°F x 6-8 weeks) any properly flue-cured leaf, although, in this instance, that would likely resolve the problem. I doubt that you would be eager to go to the trouble and expense of constructing a kiln for this one batch of leaf. [Home growers should always invest in a kiln.]
I agree with @ShiniKoroshi. Kilning is actually accelerated aging, which depends on the intrinsic oxidase enzymes within the leaf lamina to break down any remaining protein. There are two major enzymes that accomplish this in tobacco leaf. The fastest-acting of the two is denatured by heat at 149°F, so it's likely gone in this leaf. The slower of the two enzymes is not denatured by heat until about 191°F, and is likely still present after the flue-curing process. For it to act, it needs some moisture and air.
You can try lightly misting the leaf with water, then allowing it to rest in a plastic bag for a couple days, airing-out the bag at least daily. Every third day, allow the leaf to become fully dry, to avoid the growth of mold. If this is working, you should smell ammonia each time you open the bag. (That would be the protein going away.) Repeat the misting—resting—drying cycle for as long as your patience lasts (hopefully a week or three), then resample the leaf, to see if it is making any progress.
It's worth noting that the oxidase enzymes are simply catalysts created by living cells. As with all catalysts, they speed up a reaction that would happen regardless. That acceleration can be tens to hundreds of times faster than the natural, unaided reaction. The speed of the chemical breakdown of albuminous proteins is always dependent on the ambient temperature (within limits), which is why a kiln is used. If you just store the tobacco for long enough at ambient temperature, it will mellow, but that might be 5 or more years.
Bob
ShiniKoroshi
Dental Floss Tycoon
Great explanation!
Thank you Bob.
Thank you Bob.
WillQuantrill
Well-Known Member
I won't repeat the good points already made, what I thought of immediately reading this is still "young" leaf. Anytime I detect grass, hay or ammonia the leaf has some maturing to do. That goes for commercial cigars as well. That's why the Cubans have cornered the cigar market in the grass and hay flavor notes.I to came here looking for some ideas on what to do as well.
The leaf seems way thicker than any of the other Canadian flue cured Virginia lemon leaf I ever had.
The smell and taste is also quite different to any flue cured Virginia or Canadian Virginia we have received in the past.
We all agree here that it has a very strong hay and urine/barnyard smell to it.
We tried casing it and we have also tried toasting it with and without casing and using various temps ect and that all helped some but it's still has quite a hay smell to it and def not quite where we would like it to be as far as taste goes.
Do we need to toast it more or at higher temps or will it just have to age out of this state it's in???
I read someplace that the strong hay and barnyard smell can be caused by a rushed cure which then leaves to much nitrogen in the leaf hence the strong hay and barnyard smell.
Idk if there is any science or truth to that as it was just a comment someone made but if that is the case is there a way to remove that somehow and make it smoother and sweeter???
If it's not due to a rushed cure what else could cause this to happen with the differences we are seeing, smelling and tasting???
And btw I just want to put it out there that I am not complaining because we certainly can't expect perfect every time and As we all knew this is an agricultural product that can be influenced by weather and all sorts of things.
I am just trying to learn more about tobacco leaf and how to deal with it when these sort of things do happen.
Belle-Beast
Well-Known Member
We don't have a of the typical leaf left we are just working with this Canadian Virginia from our most recent order. We haven't had the pleasure of stock piling yet but Ilwe are hoping to do so at some point in the future. I can post a pic of the Canadian Virginia that I am referring to if you would like to see it just let me know.
Belle-Beast
Well-Known Member
So I was able to get the Canadian Virginia settled down a good bit.
First I got the tobacco pretty wet. Like how a super cased aromatic pipe blend would be if it were wet with water, then I wrapped it up in foil leaving the tobacco inside very loose and roasted/toasted it at 250ish? for 20 minutes, opened the foil, mixed the tobacco around, resealed the foil and roasted/toasted it again at 250ish? for another 20 minutes in my toaster oven.
I say 250ish because I know for a fact my toaster oven doesn't get up to the temp it's supposed to so this isn't very accurate yet but as soon as I find my thermometer I will get a reading and come back here to update with actual temp that was used.
After it was done roasting/toasting twice I opened up the foil stirred it around again then left it open and put it back in the toaster oven for five minutes @250ish just to get it dried out a little and closer to case but it still had to air out and dry up a bit at room temp.
Once it was dried out we were able smoke it without coughing! AND our extremely sore throats resolved in a matter of days!
WHAT A BLESSING!
It also no longer smells like a urine soaked bail of hay. Lol Thank goodness!
Now it still has more of a hay flavor than I am used to or would like and it still doesn't have quite the flavor I've been accustomed to but it's so much closer.
When I get a chance I will try another round or two of roasting/toasting @250ish and see if it further improves...
If anyone attempts this you need to make sure the tobacco nice and loose inside of the foil pouch or it doesn't work.
When I tried doing a larger batch in same size foil pouch I didn't get the same results. I think the heat needs to be circulating around in there and it all needs to get up to temp in that span of time.
I was doing about a pack and half too two packs worth of tobacco at a time in the foil pouch and the inside of the foil pouch was about the size of a half a dozen eggs.
I decided I need to get a little mini roasting pan with a lid to use for roasting/toasting my tobaccos when needed. No sense in wasting foil.
Plus I'm not sure how safe using foil on my tobacco really is...
The 250ish temp I used had no scientific basis it is just the lowest setting on the toaster oven.
As I had mentioned I had previously tried toasting this Canadian Virginia prior to posting here but I kept the door slightly ajar because I had successfully toasted some burly this way with good results a few months ago.
But the Canadian Va. def needed the higher heat and a longer cycle to get any results.
This has made me wonder if kilning might be bypassed. Perhaps one could just do a good roasting/toasting once a day for a span of time if you didn't have a kiln and didn't have large amounts of tobacco process... idk
Anyway I hope this helps someone.
And thank you again for all of the awesome advice and help! I appreciate it so much!
Time to go order some more tobacco!
I'm so excited because I saw WLT has BASMA!
Has anyone tried it yet?
I see it's industrial not quite sure what that means lol but I guess I'm down for trying it because I love love love Basma!
First I got the tobacco pretty wet. Like how a super cased aromatic pipe blend would be if it were wet with water, then I wrapped it up in foil leaving the tobacco inside very loose and roasted/toasted it at 250ish? for 20 minutes, opened the foil, mixed the tobacco around, resealed the foil and roasted/toasted it again at 250ish? for another 20 minutes in my toaster oven.
I say 250ish because I know for a fact my toaster oven doesn't get up to the temp it's supposed to so this isn't very accurate yet but as soon as I find my thermometer I will get a reading and come back here to update with actual temp that was used.
After it was done roasting/toasting twice I opened up the foil stirred it around again then left it open and put it back in the toaster oven for five minutes @250ish just to get it dried out a little and closer to case but it still had to air out and dry up a bit at room temp.
Once it was dried out we were able smoke it without coughing! AND our extremely sore throats resolved in a matter of days!
WHAT A BLESSING!
It also no longer smells like a urine soaked bail of hay. Lol
Thank goodness! Now it still has more of a hay flavor than I am used to or would like and it still doesn't have quite the flavor I've been accustomed to but it's so much closer.
When I get a chance I will try another round or two of roasting/toasting @250ish and see if it further improves...
If anyone attempts this you need to make sure the tobacco nice and loose inside of the foil pouch or it doesn't work.
When I tried doing a larger batch in same size foil pouch I didn't get the same results. I think the heat needs to be circulating around in there and it all needs to get up to temp in that span of time.
I was doing about a pack and half too two packs worth of tobacco at a time in the foil pouch and the inside of the foil pouch was about the size of a half a dozen eggs.
I decided I need to get a little mini roasting pan with a lid to use for roasting/toasting my tobaccos when needed. No sense in wasting foil.
Plus I'm not sure how safe using foil on my tobacco really is...
The 250ish temp I used had no scientific basis it is just the lowest setting on the toaster oven.
As I had mentioned I had previously tried toasting this Canadian Virginia prior to posting here but I kept the door slightly ajar because I had successfully toasted some burly this way with good results a few months ago.
But the Canadian Va. def needed the higher heat and a longer cycle to get any results.
This has made me wonder if kilning might be bypassed. Perhaps one could just do a good roasting/toasting once a day for a span of time if you didn't have a kiln and didn't have large amounts of tobacco process... idk
Anyway I hope this helps someone.
And thank you again for all of the awesome advice and help! I appreciate it so much!
Time to go order some more tobacco!
I'm so excited because I saw WLT has BASMA!
Has anyone tried it yet?
I see it's industrial not quite sure what that means lol but I guess I'm down for trying it because I love love love Basma!
Kilning accelerates the natural aging of tobacco. It will then continue to age naturally after kilning. Your high temps together with moisture is more akin to cooking Cavendish. Natural aging is not possible after cooking (temp above 191°F). If a Cavendish is what you prefer, then you have your method. Both the taste and aroma of naturally aged tobacco is significantly different from those of cooked Cavendish.
Bob
Belle-Beast
Well-Known Member
Interesting!
I knew I would be schooled some more! it's just one of the many reasons I love this forum!
But wait this also totally sucks... I killed the Canadian Virginia because now it's done aging forever?!?!?
Or maybe not because I do know that my toaster oven temp is way off. Heck it takes almost 2 hours to make a frozen pizza in that thing lol omg So it is actually quite possible that I did not surpass the max heat temp of 191.
Omg I'm laughing so hard I'm crying Lol
I need to find that thermometer AND I need a new toaster oven!
Also I Have no clue If I would prefer Cavendish or not it sounds like something I might like and
I actually just picked some Black Cavendish up the other day while I was out and about but I have yet to try it.
It smells pretty good in the bag but tobacco is funny... I hardly ever now if I will like it based on how it smells raw in the bag.
I thought Latakia was putrid but it ended up being one of my favs and the Ca. Va. that I may have murdered smells nothing like the Black Cavindesh I just got.
It just smells more like it is supposed to now that the strong hay and ammonia smell has been kicked back some.
Prior to possibly killing the Ca. Va. I tried searching for the proper toasting/roasting temp and time on here because I had read about it at one point but I could not find it again.
I also could not find the info in my notes so I just had to wing it because I needed a cig and was starting to feel a bit edgy.
I was def in a nic deficit since I was barely smoking because I was coughing so much and my throat was so sore. lol
And omg I can't wait to see what temp that toaster oven was actually hitting! Only me!
So... Question! Is it possible that ocassional toasting/roasting at temps below 191 could help accelerate the natural aging process along a little more than if it's just laying in a bag in the tobacco hutch waiting for time to pass or no?
Or could it mess things up?
I knew I would be schooled some more!
it's just one of the many reasons I love this forum! But wait this also totally sucks... I killed the Canadian Virginia because now it's done aging forever?!?!?
Or maybe not because I do know that my toaster oven temp is way off. Heck it takes almost 2 hours to make a frozen pizza in that thing lol omg So it is actually quite possible that I did not surpass the max heat temp of 191.
Omg I'm laughing so hard I'm crying Lol
I need to find that thermometer AND I need a new toaster oven!
Also I Have no clue If I would prefer Cavendish or not it sounds like something I might like and
I actually just picked some Black Cavendish up the other day while I was out and about but I have yet to try it.
It smells pretty good in the bag but tobacco is funny... I hardly ever now if I will like it based on how it smells raw in the bag.
I thought Latakia was putrid but it ended up being one of my favs and the Ca. Va. that I may have murdered smells nothing like the Black Cavindesh I just got.
It just smells more like it is supposed to now that the strong hay and ammonia smell has been kicked back some.
Prior to possibly killing the Ca. Va. I tried searching for the proper toasting/roasting temp and time on here because I had read about it at one point but I could not find it again.
I also could not find the info in my notes so I just had to wing it because I needed a cig and was starting to feel a bit edgy.
I was def in a nic deficit since I was barely smoking because I was coughing so much and my throat was so sore. lol
And omg I can't wait to see what temp that toaster oven was actually hitting! Only me!
So... Question! Is it possible that ocassional toasting/roasting at temps below 191 could help accelerate the natural aging process along a little more than if it's just laying in a bag in the tobacco hutch waiting for time to pass or no?
Or could it mess things up?
Commercial "Black Cavendish" is glopped with propylene glycol and flavorants. Home-cooked Cavendish bears no resemblance to the commercial stuff. And with home-cooked Cavendish, every distinct tobacco variety produces its own, unique Cavendish. Cooked Cavendish is not "killed". It simply won't age further. You can, of course, manipulate cooked Cavendish in other ways, such as pressing it (with or without blending in other components).
Controlled temps between 123°F and 128°F (with high humidity) are ideal for accelerating natural fermentation (aging) of tobacco, without limiting its further aging. That's a kiln. Elevated temps below 123°F will also accelerate natural fermentation, but at the risk of mold growth (which will not happen above 122°F). There are two intrinsic oxidizing enzymes within tobacco lamina. The most effective is destroyed at 141°F. The secondary one is destroyed at ~191°F. When I've kilned home-grown tobacco above ~130°F, I sensed that it altered the aroma in an unfavorable way, so I keep it below that.
Bob
Controlled temps between 123°F and 128°F (with high humidity) are ideal for accelerating natural fermentation (aging) of tobacco, without limiting its further aging. That's a kiln. Elevated temps below 123°F will also accelerate natural fermentation, but at the risk of mold growth (which will not happen above 122°F). There are two intrinsic oxidizing enzymes within tobacco lamina. The most effective is destroyed at 141°F. The secondary one is destroyed at ~191°F. When I've kilned home-grown tobacco above ~130°F, I sensed that it altered the aroma in an unfavorable way, so I keep it below that.
Bob
Belle-Beast
Well-Known Member
Noted! So I need to try to keep my roasting/toasting between 123 and 130 if I want the tobacco to have the ability to age further on its own.
When you went above 130 kilning and you say that you sensed it altered the aroma of the tobacco did that also mean that it affect the taste of the tobacco as well?
And can you perhaps explain to me how my roasting/toasting of the CA VA rid it of the strong hay ammonia smell and also made it possible to smoke it without endless coughing and getting a sore throat? Or did you already by saying I cavendished it lol Because whatever I did it worked. Lol I'm not saying it's the best tasting or smelling Virginia I've ever had but at least I have some yellow leaf to hold me over until I have something else to smoke and it I am not afraid of ordering more since this issue can be fixed if I get more that has the same strong barnyard hay and urine smell that makes us cough and causes a sore throat. Does doing this by chance lower or destroy the nic content?
Last night I found a throw away aluminum pan I forgot I had in the cupboard so I put the rest of the CA VA in there loosely, misted it, tossed it around, covered the top with foil and finished roasting/toasting the rest of what I had left last night. This time I kept the door slightly ajar and it actually smells pretty damn good especially considering where it was before I did the roasting/toasting. I need to find that darn thermometer!
And good thing I only grabbed a small pouch of that black cavendish! but I do have a pipe smoker here that may find it to their liking so maybe it's not a total loss! Lol I had a feeling that what I bought probably had all the nasty stuff on it which was the reason I only bought a small pouch of it. I was also reading where sometime Burley is used and other times Virginia. I'm not a fan of burly except for that delightful High Heat Redried Burly on WLT. Which btw reminds me! Does anyone know the process for reproducing a similar product??? Because I have a good amount of burley sitting here that I won't use unless I figure out something to do with it. I would love to know how wet it needs to be, what temp is used and how long is it high heated or is it just kept in the high heat until it is redried??? I'm sad it can only be purchased in a larger threshed quantity. If money wasn't so tight I wouldn't mind grabbed the big bag of threshed to have on hand for use. When I used the sample I had recieved I like using it between 5 to 10% of what I call my base blend which is a blend which is a blend of yellow, bright and red Virginias along with the Maryland 609. Makes a great cig that everyone loves. With this as a base blend I can add my beloved Latakia, herbs or other tobaccos's like the yummy Hand Tied Nicaragua Orinoco and always have a satisfying cig to smoke. Getting ready to order Batch #2 of the Orinoco as I loved Batch #1 and he is sold out.
I was also stressing about not having some lemon for my blend that I could smoke without adverse affects and was going to grab one of D&R's light Va. blends but now that I know I can just do some roasting/toasting/cavindishing/processing and all is well then I'm ready to to place my order at WLT for more of that as well!
When you went above 130 kilning and you say that you sensed it altered the aroma of the tobacco did that also mean that it affect the taste of the tobacco as well?
And can you perhaps explain to me how my roasting/toasting of the CA VA rid it of the strong hay ammonia smell and also made it possible to smoke it without endless coughing and getting a sore throat? Or did you already by saying I cavendished it lol Because whatever I did it worked. Lol I'm not saying it's the best tasting or smelling Virginia I've ever had but at least I have some yellow leaf to hold me over until I have something else to smoke and it I am not afraid of ordering more since this issue can be fixed if I get more that has the same strong barnyard hay and urine smell that makes us cough and causes a sore throat.
Does doing this by chance lower or destroy the nic content?Last night I found a throw away aluminum pan I forgot I had in the cupboard so I put the rest of the CA VA in there loosely, misted it, tossed it around, covered the top with foil and finished roasting/toasting the rest of what I had left last night. This time I kept the door slightly ajar and it actually smells pretty damn good especially considering where it was before I did the roasting/toasting. I need to find that darn thermometer!
And good thing I only grabbed a small pouch of that black cavendish! but I do have a pipe smoker here that may find it to their liking so maybe it's not a total loss! Lol I had a feeling that what I bought probably had all the nasty stuff on it which was the reason I only bought a small pouch of it.
I was also reading where sometime Burley is used and other times Virginia. I'm not a fan of burly except for that delightful High Heat Redried Burly on WLT. Which btw reminds me! Does anyone know the process for reproducing a similar product??? Because I have a good amount of burley sitting here that I won't use unless I figure out something to do with it. I would love to know how wet it needs to be, what temp is used and how long is it high heated or is it just kept in the high heat until it is redried??? I'm sad it can only be purchased in a larger threshed quantity. If money wasn't so tight I wouldn't mind grabbed the big bag of threshed to have on hand for use. When I used the sample I had recieved I like using it between 5 to 10% of what I call my base blend which is a blend which is a blend of yellow, bright and red Virginias along with the Maryland 609. Makes a great cig that everyone loves. With this as a base blend I can add my beloved Latakia, herbs or other tobaccos's like the yummy Hand Tied Nicaragua Orinoco and always have a satisfying cig to smoke. Getting ready to order Batch #2 of the Orinoco as I loved Batch #1 and he is sold out. I was also stressing about not having some lemon for my blend that I could smoke without adverse affects and was going to grab one of D&R's light Va. blends but now that I know I can just do some roasting/toasting/cavindishing/processing and all is well then I'm ready to to place my order at WLT for more of that as well!
Belle-Beast
Well-Known Member
Correction I need to keep it between 123 and 128!
Taste sensors: salt, sweet, sour, bitter (and umami)
Smell sensors: everything else.
What I was alluding to was a vague, slightly burnt aroma. I'm sure the tobacco was not burnt by reaching 130°F, but the complex mixture of aromas kind of leaned that way.
Cooking, toasting, kilning, aging do not alter the nicotine content. Alterations in the pH of the smoke, however, will alter the absorption of nicotine through the mucus membranes of the oropharynx.
Bob
Belle-Beast
Well-Known Member
And I almost forgot! Here is pic of what I had left of the Canadian Virginia that I got this past order.
we have been seeing the dark brown on the tube as well so i think it's safe to say it is a protein issue for sure between that and the smell of ammonia.
Funny now that I am rereading everything and hoping it sticks! I see where you mention brittle stems. We have all been complaining when we go to destem the leaf because they are almost all broke in multiple places which was never the case before...
Belle-Beast
Well-Known Member
I think this home smoker needs a small kiln regardless on if I ever plant. Which I'd love to do but health issues have made it impossible. I've got some empty large containers outside waiting for something I should see if I can get some plugs and at least do a few of something...
ShiniKoroshi
Dental Floss Tycoon
Absolutely! Please share your build in the Finishing Tobacco - Fermenting Forum.
