Mexican San Andres seeds

[Tuto]

Good day,
After Reading this post I started to look into finding some San Andres Tuxtla seeds.
The PI number used by Bob is diferent than the one I found.
PI 112180 Collected in San Andres Tuxtla Agust 20- 1935
By any chance has anyone grown it?
If so what is your opinion ?
Thanks

 

[Charly]

Sorry, I have never tried to grow San Andres seeds.
Maybe someone else did ?

 

[Torcedormike89]

I have grown San Andrés in two different seasons. It is just an older Habano type--possibly related to Piloto Cubano--and a rather unimpressive one at that. San Andrés, grown and cured at home, turns out to be simply ho-hum average cigar leaf, with marginally poor productivity.

The unique aroma that we detect in Mexican cigars is not from the variety of the tobacco, but from the manner in which the wrappers (at least) are cured. "Small", open fires are used to heat the curing barns, giving San Andrés wrappers a distinctive, easily recognizable, though still subtle fire-cured aroma. Heaven knows what sort of wood they burn for this.

Another issue with San Andrés seed (Pi 80250, Ti 117) is that, while definitely the same seed that was collected by USDA through its American Consulate in Vera Cruz, back in 1929, from 80 miles southwest of Vera Cruz, San Andrés Tuxtla, Mexico, ["A special variety said to be from the best tobacco grown in the vicinity of San Andres Tuxtla..."], it may have no relationship to the intentionally unidentified cigar leaf that comes from somewhere around San Andrés, Mexico today. Maybe it's the same variety; maybe not. (Specific varieties are constantly being replace by newer ones, due to disease resistance issues.) Regardless, planting and growing it will not give you what you are looking for.

If you have time to waste, and will sign my "I told you so" waiver, then I will send you some seed for the San Andrés varitey (shaking my head all the way to the post office). I think a better use of your home-growing efforts would be planting, growing and finishing Corojo 99, Piloto Cubano, Criollo 98 and Olor, each of which is genuinely excellent alone or blended.

I believe that chasing the specific aromas of a specific factory cigar is unlikely to end in success. That is especially true of a "recipe" that specifies an unidentified ingredient from a specific geographical region. (Add 1/2 tsp. of American spice.)

Bob

EDIT: One more caveat. ARS-GRIN lists San Andrés leaf as a filler class, rather than a wrapper type. I agree with this, due to the general shape of the leaf and its vein angle.

Of course, one can usually make wrapper out of anything.

I'm not sure if this has been posted already and web searches have been fruitless. I figured this is the best group to ask.

Anyone know where seed for San Andres tobacco can be obtained?

I recently smoked a very tasty cigar by La Galera (80th Anniversary Special Edition) and they actually published the specific components of the cigar: San Andres wrapper over Corojo binder, with Piloto Cubano, Criollo 98 and Olor in the filler.

This got me thinking. I can get all of those varieties, except the San Andres, from skychaser.

I don't hope to duplicate that cigar, but knowing that I enjoy those varieties (at least in that cigar) I had the idea maybe if I grew them I could hope to come up with something else I enjoy.

There are several other commercial cigars I enjoy that use this leaf and while I know I wouldn't be able to duplicate them, at least I may have a shot at similarities.

(Also, if anyone out there happens to have seed and are willing to part with some, PM me. I am more than willing to pay for them.)

Mexican San Andres is it’s own strain there are 5 different strains which all hybrids were created
1 hybanesis Cuba
2 mata fina brazil
3 ct broadleaf USA
4 sumatra Indonesia
5 San Andres Mexico

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

Mexican San Andres is it’s own strain there are 5 different strains which all hybrids were created
1 hybanesis Cuba
2 mata fina brazil
3 ct broadleaf USA
4 sumatra Indonesia
5 San Andres Mexico

Can you tell us more about these 5 strains? And, you're only referring to cigar leaf, correct? Not dark air cured?

 

[FmGrowit]

San Andres tobacco can also be considered a sub-curing method. Simply growing and color curing SanAndres tobacco seed does not give you "San Andres wrapper"...it's fire cured too, but not like "Fire Cured" tobacco.

 

[Torcedormike89]

San Andres tobacco can also be considered a sub-curing method. Simply growing and color curing SanAndres tobacco seed does not give you "San Andres wrapper"...it's fire cured too, but not like "Fire Cured" tobacco.

From what I was told the San Andres is not fire cured anymore that back before it made its revival it was.so I’d say late 90s they stopped and what your getting is the aroma pulled into the leaf while curing that’s why it still has its fire cured flavor

 

[Torcedormike89]

Can you tell us more about these 5 strains? And, you're only referring to cigar leaf, correct? Not dark air cured?

Dark air cured is cigar tabacco I do not have any more info but can share a link to where Nicholas Melillo tells abt them from foundation cigar co

 

[Torcedormike89]

Dark air cured is cigar tabacco I do not have any more info but can share a link to where Nicholas Melillo tells abt them from foundation cigar co

Start the video at 2:10 For seed varieties

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E82aFJBaVFk

 

[Torcedormike89]

Here is thr

From what I was told the San Andres is not fire cured anymore that back before it made its revival it was.so I’d say late 90s they stopped and what your getting is the aroma pulled into the leaf while curing that’s why it still has its fire cured flavor

here is the link to the video saka talks abt how the use to fire the barns in Mexico. Start vid at 7:00 min

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YCULs-Lgajc&t=2965s

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

From what I was told the San Andres is not fire cured anymore that back before it made its revival it was.so I’d say late 90s they stopped and what your getting is the aroma pulled into the leaf while curing that’s why it still has its fire cured flavor

I met Alejandro Turrent two years ago when he visited Edmonton. I barraged him with as many questions as was socially acceptable. He said they use fire.

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

I met Alejandro Turrent two years ago when he visited Edmonton. I barraged him with as many questions as was socially acceptable. He said they use fire.

Specifically, he said they use wood. "Tropical woods"

 

[FmGrowit]

I know a couple of people who might know what types of wood are used for curing San Andres wrapper. I'll see if I can coax it out of them.

 

[FmGrowit]

By way of two authorities, Yes, San Andres still uses wood smoke in the curing method.

Trying to find out what types of wood or whatever is used to create the smoke.

 

[FmGrowit]

"San Andres wrapper used to be fire cured with light smoke. Is that still the way it is cured?

Juan
sent
20 minutes ago
Yes

You sent
16 minutes ago
Can you find out what types of wood is used to make the smoke?

Juan
sent
15 minutes ago
Yes

Juan
sent
8 minutes ago
they use normal mother. they put a product on the wood for the fire."


I'm trying to get clearer information from this source and another.

 

[Torcedormike89]

Can you tell us more about these 5 strains? And, you're only referring to cigar leaf, correct? Not dark air cured?

I met Alejandro Turrent two years ago when he visited Edmonton. I barraged him with as many questions as was socially acceptable. He said they use fire.

I wonder why Steve said that they stopped for. And now use propane but he also said that he used fire to do the sin comp wrapper to bring back the traditional way so it would be different

 

[Torcedormike89]

See this is why I joined to extend my knowledge and love for what I do with tabacco leaves. In the end it’s hard to prescribe a definite answer bc every grower/manufacturer does it different

 

[FmGrowit]

Most traditional tobacco curing methods were discovered accidentally. The only Precolumbian recorded curing method (that I'm aware of) is tobacco being rammed into hollow logs for storage, is today's Perique. A slave trying to salvage some wet tobacco by force drying it next to a pot-belly stove is today's Flue Cured. Latika is the result of a bumper crop of Turkish tobacco that was stored in the rafters of a family hut for months while a fire was maintained all winter. Then retrieved the tobacco to learn of the effects of a chimney with a poor draw. Building fires in a barn to drive off excess moisture from a heavy over-night dew created San Andres wrapper.

Some rudimentary technical upgrades to these curing methods have been made over the centuries, but when these techniques are adapted to using modern technology and conveniences, they do not create the same product...except for Flue-Cured tobacco. Flue-Cured tobacco has benefited greatly using modern technology.

 

[Torcedormike89]

Most traditional tobacco curing methods were discovered accidentally. The only Precolumbian recorded curing method (that I'm aware of) is tobacco being rammed into hollow logs for storage, is today's Perique. A slave trying to salvage some wet tobacco by force drying it next to a pot-belly stove is today's Flue Cured. Latika is the result of a bumper crop of Turkish tobacco that was stored in the rafters of a family hut for months while a fire was maintained all winter. Then retrieved the tobacco to learn of the effects of a chimney with a poor draw. Building fires in a barn to drive off excess moisture from a heavy over-night dew created San Andres wrapper.

Some rudimentary technical upgrades to these curing methods have been made over the centuries, but when these techniques are adapted to using modern technology and conveniences, they do not create the same product...except for Flue-Cured tobacco. Flue-Cured tobacco has benefited greatly using modern technology.

Thanks for sharing that info I had no idea that’s how the methods were created

 

[Knucklehead]

Thanks for sharing that info I had no idea that’s how the methods were created

Some interesting history of the accidental discovery of bright leaf by slave Stephen Slade.

Slade, Abisha

15 Sept. 1799–1870? Abisha Slade, tobacco farmer and local politician, was born in Caswell County, the son of Ezekiel, a planter of northern Caswell

www.ncpedia.org

The history & heritage of the Dan River region's tobacco barns |

The counties of the Dan River State Crossings grew up as tobacco powerhouses. That legacy has largely faded but is still visible in the region’s beautiful tobacco barns. Farmers used the barns to cure tobacco, mostly with flues—furnaces about two feet across and three feet high that burnt wood...

www.st8crossings.com