Comparison of the same tobacco grown in different places

[ChinaVoodoo]

Controlling for yield differences due to plant spacing, soil nutrients and climate, and controlling for differences in curing and processing, is there any evidence for terroir with flue cured, oriental and burley?

It's my belief that when @Charly grows Goose Creek, which grows well in Canada and in France, that he's pretty much getting the same thing I get. Or am I naïve about that?

Are there any studies?

 

[Charly]

Oh ! We will have troubles comparing our Goose Creek Red, because I only grew it once, and the plants were all in bad shape (pvy).
I think it's @Alpine who grow it and like it.
Since my situation with pvy is becoming better, I will probably try GCR again in the near future.

The question about "terroir" is really interesting, if I remember correctly, some sources recommend different soils for different types of leaves :
- heavy, rich soil is recommended for cigar type
- light , sandy soil for flue cured strains.

I dont't know if this is true or not... but would be very interested if some more experienced people could bring a better answer.

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

Oh ! We will have troubles comparing our Goose Creek Red, because I only grew it once, and the plants were all in bad shape (pvy).
I think it's @Alpine who grow it and like it.
Since my situation with pvy is becoming better, I will probably try GCR again in the near future.

The question about "terroir" is really interesting, if I remember correctly, some sources recommend different soils for different types of leaves :
- heavy, rich soil is recommended for cigar type
- light , sandy soil for flue cured strains.

I dont't know if this is true or not... but would be very interested if some more experienced people could bring a better answer.

Thank you.
The reason I bring this up is because I am in a discussion, in the pipe magazine forum and have become frustrated. The original question was, what has a greater influence, where it's grown, or how it's cured and processed.

I explained that the predominant variable is neither. It is genetic. Much of the variation by region is because they are growing different genetic strains. That if we grow the same variety in different places, you're going to mostly taste the variety, not the place. Delgold in two places is more similar than Delgold and Costello in the same place. This is a group who thinks "Virginia" is one type of tobacco. I told them I grew 8 different "Virginias" and they are all distinct. I explained how many strains are out there and also used the example of "turkish" tobacco as being a diverse assortment of tobaccos.

Also talked about growing conditions and spacing, and curing arrangements, etc. But they don't just take my word for it.

Anyway, another FTT member warned me about choosing my battles there. I should probably have listened to him.

 

[Charly]

I agree with you about the influence of the genetics and strains. The greatest differences come from there.

About the "terroir VS curing or processing", I found that the curing and processing of the leaf can give you some very different results (even if you don't do perique or cavendish with it).
But the terroir/climate/growing techniques (sun exposure, rain, fertilization, spacing...) can give some very different results too.
Hard to tell which has the most impact...
If the question is : where VS how ? I think the how as more impact but it's subjective.

 

[Charly]

If they are not smart enough to listen what you tell them, then it might be a good idea to let them with their certainties.
Sometimes it's hopeless.

 

[Knucklehead]

Thank you.
The reason I bring this up is because I am in a discussion, in the pipe magazine forum and have become frustrated. The original question was, what has a greater influence, where it's grown, or how it's cured and processed.

I explained that the predominant variable is neither. It is genetic. Much of the variation by region is because they are growing different genetic strains. That if we grow the same variety in different places, you're going to mostly taste the variety, not the place. Delgold in two places is more similar than Delgold and Costello in the same place. This is a group who thinks "Virginia" is one type of tobacco. I told them I grew 8 different "Virginias" and they are all distinct. I explained how many strains are out there and also used the example of "turkish" tobacco as being a diverse assortment of tobaccos.

Also talked about growing conditions and spacing, and curing arrangements, etc. But they don't just take my word for it.

Anyway, another FTT member warned me about choosing my battles there. I should probably have listened to him.

Some of them are just trolling you. Others won’t be educated because they already know it all.

 

[plantdude]

G X E (genetic vs environment) interactions are always an "interesting" topic of discussion. Right up there with nature vs nurture I'm a geneticist so my answer has to be genetics plays a greater role. Tons of exceptions when it comes to a lot of the traits though. Throwing in curing methods would be a whole different ball game.
If threads on this forum are correct it sounds like there is a large difference in leaf shape, size in quality with Turkish varieties grown under "Turkish" conditions vs well watered and fertilized "American" conditions.
Even Bob is hesitant about identifying the variety of pot grown plants - too many different variables influence its appearance.
I would agree that the variety/genetics is what accounts for the most difference. I would also keep an open mind about growing conditions/environment though. Curing, ehh different subject all together - think the people on the pipe forum are a little confused.

I can see the argument for both genetics and environment, especially when it come to quality related traits. The genetics are the elephant in the room. A tobacco plant can't become an elephant, but it can be a small stalked black mammoth that is photoperiod sensitive

 

[deluxestogie]

Terroir is a term directly borrowed from the long heritage of wine production. I won't expand on @plantdude's excellent explanation of its relevance to tobacco.

Mark A. Matthews, a professor of viticulture and plant physiology at University of California, Davis, has described the common conception of terroir as a myth. While Matthews agrees local characteristics can have an effect on plant growth and the wines made from particular grapes, he points out that the term is imprecisely defined, and puts forward that the concept of terroir is accepted primarily based on traditional belief, and is not backed by rigorous data or research.

Terroir - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bob

 

[Alpine]

A tobacco plant can't become an elephant

But you can always grow a mammoth of some sort (white, black, Maryland, yellow...)
With the notable exception of whoolly mammoth

pier

 

[plantdude]

But you can always grow a mammoth of some sort (white, black, Maryland, yellow...)
With the notable exception of whoolly mammoth

pier

That could be a wonderful cross idea, harrow velvet X small stalk black mammoth = wholly mammoth

 

[Davo]

The reason I bring this up is because I am in a discussion, in the pipe magazine forum and have become frustrated.

Edit: ... “and have become quite drunk”

 

[plantdude]

Ok, since we are getting off topic about bidets and drinking habits (the two not being mutually exclusive in all cases) I have a growing condition related question.
Black Walnut trees produce the compound juglone, which kills tomato plants. Just out of curiosity does anyone know if juglone/Black walnuts negatively impact tobacco or pepper growth since they are in the same family as tomatoes (Solenaceae)?
@deluxestogie I think you mentioned you had some black walnut trees in a post a while back. Did you ever try growing tobacco around those?

 

[Davo]

I too have been watching that discussion but decided not to participate in favour of keeping the heckling from the sidelines to myself. I find myself funnier anyways...

I agree that one of the big issues there is the confusion between curing/ageing and processing/blending.

I’m new to the tobacco thing, and I agree with the above analogy of genetics being nature and environmental effects (as well as curing method) being akin to nurture. That being said, here in NZ we have the concept of ‘whenua’ which parallels that of ‘terroir’, and I believe that over generations the relationship between the land and the plant which is grown and the people who grow it will affect the genetic makeup.

I kind of view the environment in which the plant is grown and the method by which it is cured as an overlapping sort of matrix that can result in possible outcomes ranging from shit to bloody beautiful. With human involvement, this process is guided by a spirit of sheer experimentation or the pursuit of particular characteristics eg flavour. When the plant is left to its own devices, and I would assume sun cured on the stalk before rotting as mulch, the goal is reproduction in that environment.

I am experimenting this year in trying to reproduce a fluke that happened last season. I grew plants in tyres filled with straight pot ash. Their roots became crowded and the plants never reached more than about 4 foot high, and apart from ground lugs only grew smaller leaves. I stalked cured them and only after a month or so of hanging they had the most incredible flavour, almost like a fine oriental forward blend. Anyways, I’ve collected their seed and am going to try planting out some this year in the same method and compare these to some planted in a more traditional way.

 

[plantdude]

That being said, here in NZ we have the concept of ‘whenua’ which parallels that of ‘terroir’, and I believe that over generations the relationship between the land and the plant which is grown and the people who grow it will affect the genetic makeup.

Got a little Lamarkism and Darwinism going on there I fully agree. I can take a rice variety that grows well in our soil and temperatures here and grow it in Louisiana and find out it sucks. Yield can be reduced, seed set and diseases issues may arise, etc... Local adaptation is a huge part of the breeding process.

In the case of tobacco which is polyploid (allopolyploid if we want to make Bob happy) there is a huge amount of genetic variability even within a named variety. While some traits will remain relatively "fixed" there are going to be a lot of traits that have small minor effect (or sometimes even large) genetic components that are not fixed. If a person grows the same variety of plant in one location for multiple generations after nature (local environement) and the grower selects for certain plant characteristics the resulting plant is no longer going to be genetically identical to the original line. It may be close and retain a lot of the fixed traits, but its going to be different also. Multiply that by 10 or 20+ plus year of selective pressure and multiple generations and a lot of change can occur.
That same issue causes a lot of problems for seed banks. How do you increase seed over time without influencing potentially genetically important traits through accidental selection.

Have you read some of the threads on orientals? A lot of the orientals are grown close together and in stressed dry, sandy soil, low fertilizer conditions which results in small leaves and better flavor. When they are grown under "good" growing conditions (ample water, fertilizer, decent soil) they tend to have larger leaves, be much bigger plants, but supposedly have less of flavor. I'm taking other people for their word on this since this is my first year growing orientals If this is true, I wonder if you have something similar going on with whatever variety you were growing in the tires.

 

[Davo]

Yes I think I have grown either burley (potentially Maryland) or Va Gold in conditions suited for orientals. I had a massive mix up with my seedlings and as the plants never grew to maturity as such I couldn’t tell. From taste I feel it was Va Gold (I am sensitive to sugar as normally a burley smoker), however my growing buddy feels its burley (as he is predominantly a Virginia smoker)

 

[deluxestogie]

@deluxestogie I think you mentioned you had some black walnut trees...

The black walnut trees are all rather small (less than 10 years old), and are ~20 yards from the nearest garden bed. Tomatoes were planted in that nearest bed this year, and they did very poorly, but so did nearly everything else I grew in any of my beds. So I can't contribute much on the subject.

Bob

 

[lavenatti]

I planted 4 varieties of tobacco in two separate areas of my yard. One area has decent soil and although a little shady all of the plants grew taller than me. The other area is directly under a large black walnut, the plants look healthy but few of them got taller than about a foot high.

 

[deluxestogie]

Crops and tobacco planted beneath the canopy (within the drip ring) of a trees is subjected to tree root intrusion.

Bob

 

[plantdude]

I planted 4 varieties of tobacco in two separate areas of my yard. One area has decent soil and although a little shady all of the plants grew taller than me. The other area is directly under a large black walnut, the plants look healthy but few of them got taller than about a foot high.

I wonder if that was juglone related or like @deluxestogie said, a product of root intrusion. I made the mistake of planting some of mine under a silver maple this year. The ground was only amended with a light layer of compost thrown down (not mixed into the soil) and covered with cardboard to keep the weeds down. Most of the plants were planted late but are still small and stunted. Some of my other plants scattered through out the yard are also stunted though and it almost appears to be more of a factor of the soil they are grown in. Here's a few pics of some of my late season plants grown under the silver maple that were taken today.


All of the following are staghorn that are the same age grown under different conditions (pics taken today):
Under silver maple


Staghorn in backyard (west facing) flower bed (almost 5 feet tall)


Staghorn in east facing flowerbed under oak trees (the smaller one is closer to the house and is almost full shade most of the day)


Staghorn planted directly into dry soil/grass on very hot south side of the house (about 30 and 24 inches high)


Hard to draw any conclusions from this mess

 

[deluxestogie]

My experience with root intrusion is with silver maple, white pine and dwarf apple. In each instance, the beds with stunted tobacco were filled with small, superficial tree roots (more of them the closer to the tree) when the bed was re-dug the following spring. I've dug out the tree roots down to 2' below the surface, and by the following spring, they have returned even more. So I don't feel that I need to invoke any mechanism other than the "butt out of here" signal produced by tree roots.

Bob